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Ver la versión completa : Dr. Graham about B12 and the feast



Katarína
25-oct-2011, 10:54
The complete version is on: http://www.rawkathon.com/access/paid/transcripts/Doug-Graham-Rawkathon-Transcript.pdf

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I think, the medical model is approaching health from a prophylactic stand point at this point. In order to promote healthcare, as it is referred to, even though we understand fully that it is sickness care, in order to promote health care as they refer to it, they've gone to a prophylactic approach, in other words, let’s test you, if you show anything that might maybe think you could be possibly going off in the wrong direction, let's treat it now. And so before you have B12 deficiency, let’s take those B12 supplements, prophylactically,
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, this is how the medical model functions.
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There is another approach to health that’s called the hygiene approach, where we’re not trying to treat or suppress symptoms, but rather, cause health and not participate in the cause of symptoms. Health being the natural state.
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Q: If someone encounters a B12 deficiency, so they are there, then what’s the approach to get out of it?
DG: There are various approaches, the medical model would be to supplement with B12. This is akin to saying, “I’ve got a bucket. It’s supposed to be full of water, but there’s no water in here.” The medical model would say, “Let’s add water.” The hygienic model or the health model would say, “Let’s fill the hole. Once you fill the hole your body will refill the bucket automatically.” What I’ve experienced is people with B12 deficiency are put on a fast. They consume no food of any kind other than pure water, who three to four weeks later test perfectly normal for B12 levels. What this showed is that it was an absorption problem not an exposure problem....
There’s no animal that produces B12. It’s all bacterially produced, and yet we keep hearing myths.
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there is a certain percentage of people who go B12 deficient. Whether you are vegan, vegetarian, raw fooder, or Standard American Diet, that percentage is the same.
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We’re not showing that vegans have higher B12 deficiencies. But we do have to look at the reality that most grain products, especially those that are called “enriched grain products,” cereal, breads, and pasta, and whatnots, are typically enriched with B12. So, although you might be eating Twinkees, it’s enriched with B12, which means you’re taking a B12 supplement every day. What we call the normal level of B12 is based on testing people who are supplementing with B12 at every meal. This is an abnormally high level of B12 compared to the normal population or compared to a population which isn’t supplementing. We also have to understand that there’s always a rebound phenomenon for anything in our body. It’s like an over-steering mechanism that says, “If you’re very high on something, then you come off of it, you’re going to come down before you level out.” So if you’re high on speed you’re going to crash…
Q: Right.
DG: …before you level out. This is true for all drugs and substances in every way. So we see that if you were eating enriched B12 products or products enriched with B12 with every meal and when you totally stop, you may drop down before you level out. B12 testing is not a bad idea, particularly, but I wouldn’t test for B12 until someone was showing me B12 deficiency symptoms. Then I would think, “Well, maybe it’s B12.” If the symptoms are other than those of B12 deficiency, the number of people - 99 out 100 people who I’ve seen who supplement with B12, told me that it made no difference in their life. Well then, they didn’t have a B12 shortage to begin with. They were just supplementing.

sunwukung
25-oct-2011, 12:21
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sunwukung
25-oct-2011, 12:34
Perdón que no me habia dado cuenta que era un subforo de inglés, jejeje

Snickers
25-oct-2011, 14:00
Muchas gracias katarina, traduzco para los que no se mueven bien con el inglés la parte en negrita: "lo que he experimentado es que personas con deficiencia de b12 son puestas en ayuno. No consumen otro alimento más que agua pura, y tres o cuatro semanas después los tests dan niveles de b12 perfectamente normales. Lo que esto muestra es que se trataba de un problema de absorción no un problema de exposición"

Después viene a decir que en realidad hemos estado suplementados toda la vida y que al cambiar a una dieta más natural y por lo tanto no suplementada desde dentro, el cuerpo sufre un periodo de ajuste en el cual los niveles pueden bajar bruscamente durante un tiempo.

También dice que el 99% de las personas que supuestamente presentaban síntomas de deficiencia de b12, no obtienen resultado alguno suplementando con b12. Eran síntomas de otro tipo, ya sabemos que los síntomas se cruzan en todas las enfermedades, de ahí que no existan como tales, solo el estado de enfermedad.

Actualmente, después de efectivamente haberme ayudado, la b12 siempre me da síntomas de empeoramiento.

zen kiuuuuu! :D

JustVegetal
25-oct-2011, 19:28
Muchas gracias katarina, traduzco para los que no se mueven bien con el inglés la parte en negrita: "lo que he experimentado es que personas con deficiencia de b12 son puestas en ayuno. No consumen otro alimento más que agua pura, y tres o cuatro semanas después los tests dan niveles de b12 perfectamente normales. Lo que esto muestra es que se trataba de un problema de absorción no un problema de exposición"

Después viene a decir que en realidad hemos estado suplementados toda la vida y que al cambiar a una dieta más natural y por lo tanto no suplementada desde dentro, el cuerpo sufre un periodo de ajuste en el cual los niveles pueden bajar bruscamente durante un tiempo.

También dice que el 99% de las personas que supuestamente presentaban síntomas de deficiencia de b12, no obtienen resultado alguno suplementando con b12. Eran síntomas de otro tipo, ya sabemos que los síntomas se cruzan en todas las enfermedades, de ahí que no existan como tales, solo el estado de enfermedad.

Actualmente, después de efectivamente haberme ayudado, la b12 siempre me da síntomas de empeoramiento.


Perdón que no me habia dado cuenta que era un subforo de inglés, jejeje

Efectivamente aquí sobra el español, pero ya que lo usas me gustaría dejar mi opinión al respecto de lo que dice Graham, sobre todo para los que leen:

Para empezar Graham NO demuestra nada, o sea es lo que a él le parece, no puede oponerse a resultados de análisis en población.

Después dice cosas que NO son ciertas como esa de que las personas deficientes no obtienen resultados al suplementarse ¿Cómo que no? He visto gente con problemas neurológicos que inmediatamente se recuperaron al comenzar la suplementación.

Bueno, y además se supone que a todos los deficientes en B12 los vamos a poner a ayunar durante ¿cuánto tiempo? Realmente esto me parece una locura suficiente como para ponerle el disclaimer rojo del foro, máxime si tenemos en cuenta que esta carencia va a afectar de manera más grave a madres y bebés veganos que decidiesen no suplementarse, gracias a recomendaciones de este tipo.

Me sigue pareciendo un jueguecito siniestro el del tal Graham entretenerse en dar sus opiniones personales en contra de sociedades científicas y de datos concretos, como los tantas veces citados, ADA, IVU, Vegan Health, etc, que recomiendan encarecidamente la suplementación con B12 especialmente en veganos, incluyendo los crudiveganos.

nekete
25-oct-2011, 23:50
Hey, beautiful people, go back to the spanish forum. :D

sunwukung
26-oct-2011, 00:22
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Katarína
27-oct-2011, 10:05
About 95-99% of people I know from the raw food forum doesn´t take any supplemet do not show any deficience of B12 and above all: They do not have any reason to see any doctor for any analisis as they have for to see him for a plastic surgery... That´s whay I do not believe in those "objective" studies of "the population".

harprakash
27-oct-2011, 10:26
sunwukung, katarina, check out the famous raw vegan forum http://www.30bananasaday.com. Many people is suplementing even with shots, two examples:

- http://www.30bananasaday.com/forum/topics/vitamin-b12-shots
- http://www.30bananasaday.com/forum/topics/b12-source


There are 270 of posts about B12 shots...
http://www.30bananasaday.com/forum/topic/search?q=B12+shots

sunwukung
27-oct-2011, 10:56
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Katarína
27-oct-2011, 12:12
The best on a listening to my own body is that I do not need toget limited by the recommendations of "famous" forums, doctors, gurus, "science", etc.

There are so many different styles of raw food diets as they are by any other diet. To divide the alimentation just according raw / cooked or veg*n / no vegan is very poor.

Not just by 30 bananas a day but just by 1 banana a day my body would scream. And by following the general alimentation of this forum I would definitely get ill or at least much worse.

I just wanted to say that what in this forum is described as a reason is just a concequence: the logical consequence of the diet full of grains ("healthy" home-made organic breads) and the similar heavy overcombinated stuff. Already by raw food and by the dead one even much more. The body si wise. And every action has its reaction.

For the medical analysis usually go the people who are already in troubles or who are worry about not to get in them (like in generally in this forum). Those who are far from it usually do not have any reason to go there.

Of course, who wants to follow the type of any diet that makes the intestins dirty, let him complement. It is surely much better than loose the health.

harprakash
27-oct-2011, 14:25
I strongly disagree Katarína, it is important to listen your body but you should not underestimate Science.

Saying that you don't believe science about B12, is like saying that you don't believe a cyanide capsule could kill you. Your body never tested it, but science tells you, with no doubt, that it will definitely kill you... :)

Katarína
03-nov-2011, 12:47
What I am describing belongs to the science as well. It is not just that what the pharmaceutical companies present as "the science"...